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Astrology With Caliban and Cat

To: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.divination,alt.astrology
From: catherine yronwode 
Subject: Re: Astrology With Caliban and Cat
Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 08:49:50 GMT

nagasiva wrote:
> Caliban:
> > Why doesn't Cat come onto ARW to reply?

Boring troll-and-flame group, not worth subbing to. 

> dunno. maybe cuz the subject is astrology? 

That too!

> > Are you cutting in her responses from email correspondence
> > between you two? Its a little odd.

> nope, just taking the original from alt.xyzzy/whatever to where I
> thought it was more appropos (alt.astrology esp), plus whatever
> might be temporarily on-topic (such as Wicca re reincarnation).

No email. 

I'm going to snip some of this, since it builds upon a long history of
personal flames, and just reply to the astrological portions:

Caliban:
> > The Sextile is minor compared to the aspects I did mention. And it is
> > a weak aspect among all possible aspects. It indicates an opportunity,
> > missed if not taken advantage of.
> 
> is what you're calling a 'YOD' the Allah-finger? sri catyananda
> mentioned the sextile with respect to that figure.

Caliban is treating the two quincunxes as single aspects and saying
that a sextile is weaker than they are. This shows a basic
imperception on his part of pattern astrology or holistic chart
analysis. 

A mark of the canned horoscope (as produced by a program, ala IO
Edition, with which you are familiar, i believe) is that is can only
look at the aspects one at a time. A good astrologer looks at the
whole pattern. The aspects in question, in my chart, which Caliban
Jeff Crowe is trying to interpret in a scary, negative way, are a
double quincunx and sextile (an isosceles triangle) bisected by an
opposition. The sextile is not "weak" in that formation -- it is an
integral part of the structure. 

The quincunx is a minor aspect that makes for complex interpretations
because as i noted before, it both jumps elements (earth, air, fire,
water) and it jumps qualities (cardinal, fixed, mutable). 

The quincunx is normally thought of as 150 degrees, but some
astrologers have noted that it comprises a 90 degree square ("bad"
"evil" "negative" "difficult") plus a 120 degree trine ("good"
"fortunate" "positive" "easy"). This is demonstrated as follows: 90
plus 120 totals 210 degrees, which, if you read the other way around
the circle, is 150 degrees. 

Another way to see it and learn it is to consider that a quincunx is
neither a member of the "negative" set of aspects based on division of
the circle of 12 signs by 2 or 4 or 8 (resulting in opposition,
square, and semi-square) NOR is it a member of the "positive" set of
aspects based on a division of the circle of 12 signs by 3 or 6 or 12
(trine, sextile, and semi-sextile). 

It is a tense aspect that contains both positive and negative values,
and it is unique among all the aspects in not belonging to an
aspect-family. It is also a fairly weak aspect, in that its effects
are not often strongly pronounced in the life of the native ("native"
is an old astrological term for the subject of the chart
interpretation).  

That is the single quincunx. 

Now, the double quincunx, which is faced off with the fortunate
sextile, is seen as a very powerful aspect, and outside of Caliban's
using it to carp at me, because it appears on my chart, i have never
heard it described as negatively as he has. He is interpreting it
almost as a T-square, which it most decidedly is not, for the T-square
is capped by an opposition, and is thus comprised of three negative
aspects, whereas the double quincunx is capped by a sextile and thus
consists of two tense aspects and one minor fortunate aspect. 

I had noted that in his interpretation of my chart he repeatedly
ignored my Venus, only referring to my Mars. This is more than a major
oversight, it is unprofessionally biased. You asked him why he was
leaving it out:

nagasiva:
> re Venus which is conj Mars in Aries:

> > Often indicates relationship problems, and it's worse in
> > Cat's chart because she has Aries intercepted.

This is laughable. Venus conjunct Mars is a notable sign of a sexually
motivated person, one with a high sex drive, comfortable with sex, and
it says little about "relationship problems" at all. I have seen
people with this aspect married once, for life, and others who had
several relationships -- but what is obvious about the aspect is that
the native is very likely to consider that having a compatible sex
partner is a very high motivator. 

In old books, women with the aspect were sometimes said to be "too
dominant to be really feminine" (that is, for certain cultural norms)
but this is fast fading away, as norms have changed. Queen Victoria of
England had Venus conjunct Mars. Her sexual love for her husband
Prince Albert was the stuff of legend, and after his death, she was
almost incapacitated with grief until she found a new sex partner, at
which point she became her cheerful self again. (There was a recent
movie dramatizing this sexual aspect of Queen Victoria, called "Mrs.
Brown"). 

Now, as for me, you know that i began writing about sexual topics in
1976 (an article on Alice Bunker Stockham and karezza for "East West
Journal") and have continued to this day, with a large web site on
sacred sex and sex magick at http://www.luckymojo.com/sacredsex.html
-- that's the kind of thing one expects from people with Venus
conjunct Mars -- a mystical, magical idea of sex. 

Caliban, on the other hand, has Venus SQUARE Mars. That is the usual
sign of difficult relationships and even imperfect sexual adjustment.
His continually "forgetting" to mention my Venus and his
interpretation of Venus conjunct Mars as "difficult" is a projection
of his own Venus Square Mars, i suspect. 

> what does "intercepted" mean? you just talking about the
> Mars/Venus conjunction?

An intercepted sign is one that does not appear on a house cusp. This
will change depending on what system of houses you use. If there is
one, there will always be another -- the opposite sign.. In my case,
both Aries and Libra are intercepted if one uses the Placidian method
of assigning house cusps. 

In my experience, an aspect in an intercepted sign is not a weak
aspect, but what IS weakened is the planet that rules the sign that is
intercepted. That is because it rules no house. 

Of course, if two signs are intercepted, two other signs will rule two
houses each. In my experience, the planets that rule those two signs
will be proportionately stronger. 

In my case, since Aries and Libra are intercepted, Mars and Venus
(their rulers) are weakened -- but Venus has a second rulership
(Taurus) which is not intercepted, so it is restored to strength --
but the conjunction takes place in the home-sign of Mars (Aries) so
Mars is also somewhat restored in strength. 

In the end there are many more factors than the interception to
contemplate: -- i am a Taurus (plus points for Venus), and Aries is
intercepted (minus points for Mars) and Venus is in Aries (minus
points for Venus) and Mars is in Aries (plus points for Mars) -- and.
as it turns out everything remains pretty much in balance. 

> >>> Also you have completely overlooked the fact that this
> >>> double quincunx or Arabic "Finger of God" also always
> >>> includes, by its very structural nature, a nice,
> >>> charming, helpful sextile, making the whole into an
> >>> isosceles triangle. In this case, the pleasant and
> >>> uplifting sextile is Uranus-Ascendant sextile Venus-Mars.
> >
> > Bullshit. Comparing a sextile to that Yod is like trying
> > to put out a forest fire with a single fire extinguisher.

See? -- he thinks i am "comparing" them. This is because he doesn't
understand that the sextile is an INTEGRAL PART OF what he calls the
"yod" (double quincunx) pattern. 

> the phrase "that Yod" is confusing here as I didn't see
> you define it, though by implication I gather it may be the
> Allah-finger or the opposition(s?). elsewhere you mention
> that sextile is just an opportunity which might be missed,
> so I gather the Yod is either not the sextile or the figure
> of which the sextile is part. you're talking about the
> Jupiter/Sun opposition? or something else?

 No, he's talking about the double quincunx MINUS the sextile  and
then claims i am "comparing" its strength to that of the double
quincunx. He doesn't realize it is all one figure. He is reading the
chart as disconnected single aspects, like a "canned" interpretation. 
 
> to sri catyananda:
> > Not my stated goal to analyze your entire chart.

Thanks be! His idea of chart interpretation is to use it to trash
people. 
 
> true, but it'll be mine to come to an understanding of
> as much of all the charts we discuss as I'm able with
> the aim of understanding astrology better and, quite
> possibly, from an antagonistic view (usually I notice
> that readers are interested in slanting it the other
> way, so I'm very intrigued to learn about the most
> negative interpretation of my own chart and
> comparing it with the most positive). :>

Actually, many astrologers specialize in negative interpretations, as
Caliban did with my chart. They do this to frighten clients and make
them dependent. It's a routine similar to the old Gypsy candle-burning
scam. 
 
> > My goal was to discuss exactly what I discussed.
> > The highly volatile weak point in your chart.

He admits to wanting to use my chart to trash me, and he may also be
trying to catalyze some sort of unfortunate incident by predicting it,
through the power of suggestion. Most astrologers actually take vows
not to do this to people, and especially not to do so without reading
the entire chart. Caliban jeff Crowe thus reveals himself as quite an
outsider to the norm in astrological circles. He is attempting to use
astrology to weaken, undermine, frighten, and harass a person who did
not come to him for astrological advice. He didn't know that i am an
astrologer when he started this, by the way. He mentioned in usenet,
while flaming me, that he had found my chart (the basics are on my
home page) and could use it against me. That's evil, from my point of
view.  
 
> and in particular how you see it relating to the
> upcoming planetary transits.

This is known as setting up the client for a fall. He predicts that
something very vague will occur (in this case, volatility, weakness,
"interesting" events) and then sits back and waits. If something
negative occurs, he can crow about it. If nothing happens, nine times
out of ten the client either forgets the prediction or can be soothed
with the assurance that by learning about it in advance, the bad
things was avoided. 

This is not astrology, as i know it. It is carny mentalism, using
astrology for a very low purpose. 

> >>how does one determine a chart ruler? is it a matter of the
> >>whole configuration? or can I just pick my favourite? I see
> >>in many charts a focus of attention for various relations
> >>of opposition, conjunctions, etc., and presume that it has
> >>given that planet strong play in the overal natal chart.
> >
> > What's your Ascendant? The ruling planet of your
> > Ascendant is your chart ruler.
> 
> ah! that would be Jupiter then, since Sagittarius is my
> Ascendant. birthchart 10-25-61 in San Jose, CA.

Caliban does not mention it, but there are other ways to determine the
chart ruler. Some teachers will tell you that a planet trumps an
imaginary point any time, so that having a planet at the ascendant
will trump the mechanical ascription of rulership to the planet that
rules the sign that is at the ascendant. 



> I think astrology wars are an interesting slant on chart
> analysis: describing the worst aspects of someone's
> natal chart whom one wishes to oppose, undermine, or
> otherwise unsettle. should you care to share your date
> of birth and compare charts in whatever relation (i.e.
> wars, convivial exchange, whatever), I'd be interested.

Caliban Jeff Crowe was born November 14, 1954. He has Mars in Aquarius
square his Venus (Retrograde), Sun, and Saturn in Scorpio -- and Venus
(Retrograde) and the Sun are also Square to Pluto in Leo. He has
Jupiter conjunct Uranus in Cancer and they are both square his Neptune
in Libra and his Mercury in Scorpio.

> the contrast of valuation and interpretation of charts
> has always been intriguing to me.

I'm sure. Contrast appeals to you. You have Jupiter conjunct Saturn.
You are equable with respect to extremes of positivity and negativity.
As John Lennon, another person with Jupiter conjunct Saturn, once
declared: 
    Raaaa-aaaa-aaaa-aaaain, i don't mind! 
    Shiiii-iii-ii-iiine, the weather's fine!
 
Cordially, 

cat yronwode

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Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.divination,alt.astrology,alt.astrology.metapsych
Subject: Re: Astrology With Caliban and Cat
From: Ashurbanipal 
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On Thu, 27 Feb 2003 19:45:11 GMT,  in message 
<>, nagasiva  
spleniated...
>50030227 VII
>this is a great thread.

	Perhaps. Unfortunately, I have to dig up the previous posts to 
understand the insults that have gone before.

	We have this from CY:

>Some astrological advice: When Mercury is as far from the Sun as it is
>on your natal chart, you will not have an easy path as a writer. 

	Hold it - now we have to dig up the chart:

>Caliban Jeff Crowe was born November 14, 1954. 

	No location, no time. Bummer.

+-------<11>13Sag34----<10>23Sco26-----<9>13Lib34-----------+
|              |              | Ven 22Sco41r |              |
|              |              | Sun 21Sco55  |              |
|              |              | Sat 13Sco15  |              |
|              |              | Mer  2Sco44  |              |
|              |              | Nep 26Lib45  | For 22Vir08  |
<12> 3Cap42----|-----------------------------|----- 3Vir42<8>
| Nod  7Cap55r |     Astrolog 5.40 chart     |              |
|              |           Caliban           |              |
|              |    Sun Nov 14 1954 12:00    | Plu 26Leo45  |
|              |      Noontime Seattle       | Jup 29Can56  |
|              |  ST -08:00, 122:20W 47:36N  | Ura 27Can39r |
<1>23Cap50-----|   UT: 20:00, Sid.T: 15:24   |-----23Can50<7>
| Mar 16Aqu19  |       Porphyry Houses       |              |
|              |    Tropical / Geocentric    |              |
|              |  Julian Day = 2435061.3333  |              |
|              |                             |              |
|              |                             | Moo 20Can13  |
<2> 3Pis42-----|-----------------------------|----- 3Can42<6>
|              |              |              |              |
|              |              |              |              |
|              |              |              |              |
|              |              |              |              |
|              |              |              |              |
+-----------13Ari34<3>-----23Tau26<4>-----13Gem34<5>--------+

>He has Mars in Aquarius square his Venus (Retrograde), 

	And combust.

>Sun, and Saturn in Scorpio -- and Venus (Retrograde) and the Sun are also 
>Square to Pluto in Leo. He has Jupiter conjunct Uranus in Cancer and they 
>are both square his Neptune in Libra and his Mercury in Scorpio.

	Ok. Where were we?

>Some astrological advice: When Mercury is as far from the Sun as it is
>on your natal chart, you will not have an easy path as a writer. 

	Never heard of that before.

>And
>with Saturn dividing the space between Mercury and the Sun, as is
>shown in your nativity, things only get worse, because you will become
>a captive writer, one who writes tech manuals or ad copy or fills some
>other menial role in the realm of sub-literature. Take a tip from your
>astro-twin Condoleeza Rice and find yourself someone to work for,
>because you will never have the wit and grace to be an independent
>author. 

	How very.
	Ok, now the other post that isn't there.

On Tue, 25 Feb 2003 22:55:22 -0800,  in message 
<>, Caliban  
spleniated...
>CatY:
>My reply to your vindictive post about me has taken a back seat behind
>our work on a second book, looking at property to purchase and

	Huff. Puff. Puff. Puff.

>investigating my legal recourse against you for your most recent
>invasion of our privacy (and that of the UPS manager, by the way,
>who's furious about your publication of her name and number on
>Usenet). 

	Ah, they've gone lawsuit-happy.
	Or lawsuit-threat-happy.

>Most ISP's frown on that kind of behavior, Cat, I should
>think you'd be aware of that by now.

	Bah.

>"Outing" people on Usenet may be
>a hobby of yours, but the law protects those of us who prize their
>anonymity.

	Helllll-LO! Patriot Act for 200$, please!

>The use of a rented mailbox and having an unlisted
>telephone number are common protections of privacy, 

	More or less, yes.

>and not the exclusive behavior of a "troll", as you've depicted it. Your
>invasion of my family's privacy, and that of the UPS manager, will be
>addressed shortly through every legal channel that I can pursue. 

	You are a very silly person.

>Your actions
>will have consequences, Cat, and if you persist in your obsessive
>Usenet and real-life stalking of me, those consequences will become
>more and more severe.

	Oooooooooooo. Stalking. Booga booga.

>Caliban:
>>> Here are two very famous and very successful authors
>>> with their Sun and Mercury more than 15 degrees apart, AND in
>>> different signs: Stephen King (Virgo Sun and Libra Mercury) 
>sri catyananda :
>> A truly bad writer, in my opinion. 
>ah but he's been successful, which was the point in response
>to your criticism that the planetary configuration would
>make it difficult to become so (if memory serves -- y'all
>didn't preserve the previous conv!!!!! naughty! ;>).

	Yes. 
	I have never heard of this 'good writers have Mercury conjunct the 
sun' thing. When did that happen?
	Note: I have no urge to read Stephen King.

>>> and Anne Rice (Libra Sun and Scorpio Mercury - about 
>>> 3 degrees from mine, in fact!)
>> Unreadable, in my opinion. 
>again, successful and famous. that's why I figure that either
>they have mitigating factors in their charts, or they are
>contraries to your contentions, as he stipulates, regarding
>his own.

	I wouldn't call her unreadable. Having read a coupla of her books I 
can say I generally don't care for her style or subject matter but she's 
hardly unreadable.
	Anyways, two more: Larry Niven (Sun 9Tau34, Merc 26Ari04 (rx!)) and 
Jerry Pournelle (also Merc rx at 2Leo21 and Sun at 14Leo45).
	Not 15 degrees, but close enough.
	Ha. Toni Morrison (Feb 18 (Hi, Layo!) 1931) with Sun 28Aqu58 and Merc 
at 10Aqu20.
	Herman Melville, Sun at 8Leo25, Mercury at 4Vir04, but that's on the 
Epimethian side.
	Gustave Flaubert, Sun at 20Sag18, Merc at 29Sco52.
	Ok, that's enough.

>>> As you pointed out in your email to me, Jupiter is the apex 
>>> of a double quincunx, but unlike your interpretation, it's 
>>> not a favorable placement at all. 
>> I did not call it favourable. 

	Right. Time for another chart.

+-------<11> 3Ari35----<10>26Aqu07-----<9> 3Aqu35-----------+
| Ven 21Ari00  | For 10Pis27  |              |              |
| Mar 23Ari33  |              |              |              |
|              |              |              |              |
|              |              |              |              |
|              |              | Moo 12Aqu58  |              |
<12>11Tau03----|-----------------------------|-----11Cap03<8>
| Mer 17Tau04  |     Astrolog 5.40 chart     |              |
| Sun 21Tau02  |   CYronwode (Gem rising)    |              |
| Nod  3Gem11r |    Mon May 12 1947  7:45    |              |
|              |      San Francisco, CA      |              |
|              |  DT -08:00, 122:25W 37:45N  |              |
<1>18Gem30-----|   UT: 14:45, Sid.T: 21:53   |-----18Sag30<7>
| Ura 20Gem04  |       Porphyry Houses       |              |
|              |    Tropical / Geocentric    |              |
|              |  Julian Day = 2432318.1146  |              |
|              |                             |              |
|              |                             | Jup 22Sco55r |
<2>11Can03-----|-----------------------------|-----11Sco03<6>
| Sat  3Leo16  | Plu 11Leo04  |              |              |
|              |              |              |              |
|              |              |              |              |
|              |              |              |              |
|              |              |              | Nep  8Lib24r |
+----------- 3Leo35<3>-----26Leo07<4>----- 3Lib35<5>--------+

	Time mostly accurate.

>> It is unusual and not just 
>> because it is a double quincunx (isosceles triangle) but 
>> because it is also bisected by an opposition, 

	Which makes it a Yod. Or rather, a psuedo-yod, since what should be 
the 'finger of fate' (Jupiter) or whatever you want to call is not the fastest 
moving planet, so the configuration would break up before the finger could 
write. 'Real' yods are very unusual. Regular flavor yods aren't - I have one.

>> and there 
>> are a total of 7 planets/asc involved on the four 
>> placements, 

	Oh, ho. Uranus is supposed to be conjunct the Asc. Right!

all in pairs, except for Jupiter. The 
>> symmetry is interesting. 
>if ya'll come up with some birth times we can all play along,
>or maybe a URL with a chart with this configuration.

	See above.

>>> quincunx, also known as an inconjunct, is a hard, 
>>> or difficult, aspect, often calling for major life 
>>> adjustments to be made. 

	Bah. Bah. Bullshit.

>>> In your case, Jupiter, 
>>> the planet of expansion and good fortune is 
>>> inconjunct your Ascendant in Aquarius 
[insert hilarious Caliban explanation here]
>>>ugh. Enough already. I pointed out your double quincunx correctly, no?
>>>So obviously my reference to your Asc and Uranus in Aquarius is a
>>>typo. This was a lot of wasted explanations about a non-issue.

	Dorkmaster!
	Oops. That's a typo, I meant 'well done, stout fellow, backbone of 
England.'

>THAT's why I wasn't understanding you. you were talking
>"inconjunct" rather than quincunx. not being an astrologer,
>I hadn't understood that term. thanks to you two for splaining.
>> My ascendant is in Gemini, not Aquarius. 
>> But you are making an even bigger error here, and this 
>> is basic stuff:
>> Scorpio planets cannot be quincunx to Aquarius planets.
>3 signs apart on the Wheel.

	Now I know my ABC's!

>> When two planets share the same degree range (orb), 
>> you can look for aspects by considering the elements 
>> and qualities of the signs, without doing the math. 
>sensible. this also describes some of the characteristics
>in a kind of taxonomy:
>TRINE-ELEMENT

	Same uh, gender, same element, different mode (quality).
	Sextile - same gender, different element, different mode.

>> Any two signs of the same element (earth, air, fire, 
>> water) are trine, if the planets are in orb. 
>SQUARE/OPPOSED-QUALITY

	Square - different gender, different element, same mode.
	Opposition - same gender, different element, same mode.

>> Any two signs of the same quality (cardinal fixed, 
>> mutable) are square or opposed, if the planets are in orb.
>QUINCUNX('INCONJUNCT')-NONELEMENT/NONQUALITY

	Quincunx - different gender, different element, different mode.
	Semi-sextile - different gender, different element, different mode.

	Semi-sextiled signs (the ones immediately preceding and succeeding) 
are in a related quadrant or group, more or less. Quadrants are northern 
hemisphere seasons. Capricorn, Aquarius and Pisces are the Winter quadrant. 
Capricorn and Pisces semi-sextile Aquarius. Libra semi-sextiles Scorpio (both 
are part of the group signs and the fall signs) and Virgo, which is the most 
group-like of the individual signs and is the waning summer sign.
	
>> Any two signs that have neither the same element nor 
>> the same sign are quincunx, if the planets are within orb. 
>what about sextile?

	See above.

	Ptolemaic/classical aspects are the conjunction, the sextile, the 
square, the trine and the opposition.
	Ostensibly this is based on the division of 360 by two and three. That 
is, divide 360/2 and you get 180 (opposition), divide again by 2 and you get 
90 degrees which is the square, /2 again and you get the semi-square which 
most planets of the Federation consider a minor aspect. Meanwhile, divide 
360/3 and you get 120 degrees which is the trine, /3 again and you get the 60 
degrees which sextile, /3 again and you get Regis Philbin. (None of this gets 
you the semi-sextile or the quincunx.)

	OR! You can just ignore all that stuff and just state that every sign 
forms and angle with every other sign and work fromt here, which thusly adds 
the semi-sextile and the quincunx.
	
[...]
>> What i have in Aquarius is my Moon, but it is out of 
>> orb and thus is not square Jupiter in Scorpio. 

	But Mercury translates the light, dude. What a nifty light-bringer! 
It's like Perseus and Medusa. (<--- not intended as slight or even a personal 
reference.)

>> And indeed, my Jupiter is quincunx my Uranus and 
>> Ascendant, because my Uranus and Ascendant are in 
>> Gemini (not Aquarius). 
>what's the general significance of a quincunx?

	Less than no relationship. South pole of the magnet to the south pole 
of another magnet.

>>> as well as your Mars and Venus in Aries. 
>> Right -- and my Mars-Venus conjunction in Aries. 
[...]
>> I think i referred to the structure as a whole --  
>> an arrow-shape, with the opposition the axis of the
>> bilaterally symmetrical isosceles triangle. 
>right, the Godfinger.

	God gave me the finger and all I got was this lousy headache.

>>> Upon closer analysis, Jupiter is the apex of 3 hard aspects: 2
>>> Inconjuncts and 1 Opposition. 
>> Right, that's what i was describing. The Arabs call this 
>> structure the "finger of God." 
>if they're Arabs do they have an Allah name for it?
>finger-ben-Allah?

	I am so not going to touch that.
	Anyways, there are also a sextile and two semi-sextiles involved.

>> It is a difficult set of aspects but productive of wide 
>> interests because of the way the quincunxes jump both 
>> elements and qualities and because there is a pleasant 
>> and fortunate sextile forming the shorter leg of the 
>> isosceles triangle. 
>yes, he didn't mention the sextile. in your analysis above
>about quincunxes, integrating the other relations, you did
>not mention how sextiles relate to elements/qualities either.

	Oppositions are not particularly nasty, sextiles are nice, but not 
automatic like trines, semi-sextiles are annoying but available and 
inconjuncts are slippery like a bar of soap in the shower.

>
[added back in for personal amusement]
>>>The only other planetary body in your
>>>6th House of health, service and the daily grind, besides Jupiter, is
>>>the South Node in Sagittarius. This tells me that you likely died by a
>>>violent act of your own devising in a past life,

	1> Why do you say that? The Sixth house is restrictions, not 
afflictions.
	2> Did you use your pink call box to God to get that answer?

>> I don't believe in that.  I'm surprised that you do. 
>I'm not, given he derives from alt.religion.wicca. maybe he
>fits into the general Wicca community stereotype after all.

	I think it is maybe very silly, like a pet rock.

>> Are you a Hindu or Buddhist, by any chance?  
>Wiccans, by and large, believe in a vaguely-defined 
>reincarnation ideology. 

	'Ok, all you damn suicides step right up here, you're going back into 
the line tonight! Don't groan at me! Upstairs says we need the replacements!'

>>> and have unbalanced anger/depression issues in this 
>>> life. Now apply the random chaos of Uranus, the 
>>> fire of Mars, your stubborn Taurus Sun and, finally, 
>>> your own Ascendant 
>> You left out Venus, the lovey-dovey planet, conjunct Mars. 
>conveniently so.
>>> and you're in a wonderfully created astrological trap
>>> wherein everything you do (Mars), everything you are (Sun), 
>>> everything you think and say (Mercury) and everything you 
>>> aspire towards (Ascendant) are all perched precariously 
>>> on that over-stressed point in your 6th house. 
>> You left out Venus, the lovey-dovey one. Again! 
>how does leaving out Venus affect his analysis, tho?

	I think maybe he wants God to give him the finger, rectally-speaking.

>> Also you have completely overlooked the fact that this 
>> double quincunx or Arabic "Finger of God" also always 
>> includes, by its very structural nature, a nice, 
>> charming, helpful sextile, making the whole into an
>> isosceles triangle.

	And two semi-sextiles to match the two inconjuncts!

>> In this case, the pleasant and 
>> uplifting sextile is Uranus-Ascendant sextile Venus-Mars. 
>it appears that, like the Lunar-Nodes, some astrologers
>don't understand or recognize the significance or 
>influence of the Allahfinger (::hearing strains of 
>"Goldfinger" wha-WHA-wha!).

	I have the urge to break some fingers.
	
>> Plus, you have somehow lost track of my Moon in Aquarius 
>> at the Midheaven and the highly positive double trine 
>> from the Moon-Midheaven to Uranus-Ascendant and to 
>> Neptune, as well as opposed to Pluto. The chart is 
>> unusual in that

	Not THAT unusual.

>> it has two bilaterally symmetrical 
>> patterns on it, each making a different form of V or 
>> arrow (one beneficent, one difficult) -- and the two 
>> are connected. 
>> By removing all references to Venus, to the sextile, 
>> to the double trine, and so forth, you sound the kind 
>> of fortune teller who tries to scare clients by telling 
>> them a lot of scary spooky stuff about their "baaaad" 
>> aspects and their imaginary horrendous "past lives." 
>> That's not a very noble use of astrology, in my opinion. 
>that was my hit also. 'course he says he doesn't read web
>pages and that the observables he could have used that I
>filled him in on were unknown to him previously. this is
>also similar to how some hoaky astrologers wok, but he may
>be providing a true account and have deduced what you have
>otherwise revealed at your website (as you and I both mention).

	He went negative.
	What did she say?
">And
>with Saturn dividing the space between Mercury and the Sun, as is
>shown in your nativity, things only get worse, because you will become
>a captive writer, one who writes tech manuals or ad copy or fills some
>other menial role in the realm of sub-literature. Take a tip from your
>astro-twin Condoleeza Rice and find yourself someone to work for,
>because you will never have the wit and grace to be an independent
>author. "

	She went negative, he went negative back and then some.
	Bring on the light-bringers!

>>> A point, by the way, which exactly matches my Sun.
>> Yes, indeed. My Jupiter is conjunct your Sun. That's why 
>> i find you funny. That's why i take the time to correct 
>> your faulty astrological calculations. 
>presumably these are both natal renderings.

	See above.

>>> In fact, all it would take to bring that house of cards tumbling down,
>>> is a little extra push from a transiting planet - say Saturn, which
>>> will be forming it's own inconjunct with your natal Jupiter during the
>>> entire month of March. So let's see. Saturn, my chart ruler, will be
>>> in hard aspect to your Jupiter, 

	Why the fuck, exactly, would Saturn being your chart ruler...ah, so, 
Cap rising is it?
	Lemme go fix that. Never mind, I don't have to.
	Anyways: Why the fuck, exactly, would Saturn being your chart ruler 
make one whit of difference to the Saturn transit to her Jupiter? Did you rent 
Saturn for March? 
	'Go aspect that nasty Yronwode woman right now, dammit, or there'll be 
no supper for you, my fine ringed friend!'
	
>>> in the sign and position of my Sun, for the ENTIRE month.

	So you're going to get hit by a stupid piddly inconjunct TOO. And it's 
not your Jupiter, it's your sun.
	I sense an Excalibur-like blow in progress.
	How's that TUranus inconjunct NUranus+NJupiter working out there?

>>> I'll not comment further on that little
>>> coincidence, but leave you to discover the implications for yourself!
>> Condolences on having Saturn, your chart ruler, "in hard aspect to...
>> the sign and position of [your] Sun for the ENTIRE month."  
>how does one determine a chart ruler? is it a matter of the 
>whole configuration? or can I just pick my favourite? 

	You could. Ruler of the ASC, ruler of the sign of the sign, and the 
most dignified planet are the usual choices.

>I see
>in many charts a focus of attention for various relations
>of opposition, conjunctions, etc., and presume that it has
>given that planet strong play in the overal natal chart.
>what does it say about a person whose chart ruler is Saturn?

	Makin' little ones out of big ones, and do you kids thank him? He 
sweats and slaves and all he gets are Godly fingers up the ass! But he likes 
it! It builds character! 
	'Thank you Jesus for God's prostrate exam!'

>does the Godfinger point at a particular planet? if so, is
>that *your* chart ruler? since my Satanic Trapezoid is so
>quadratic, I don't see how I could have a single chart ruler.
>> If you live as long as i have, you'll get used to things 
>> like that. And, in my opinion, you don't need any past 
>> life fantasies to help you deal with it. 
>if you're creative, past-life fantasies afford a further
>trajectory or painting canvas, I suppose. I wonder how to
>avoid arbitrary selections of past and future lives when
>one's present-life interpretation starts to fail or yields
>insufficient data.

	'TROTSKY! You've returned!'

>>> ...we all occasionally say things in the heat of a 
>>> flame war that we might otherwise not say.
>the issue was your hypocrisy, tho.
>> I await your apology, too, and, due to my having my 
>> Jupiter on your Sun, it will no doubt meet with favour. 
>does it matter that Saturn, his supposed chart ruler, will
>be in the sign and position of his Sun? that would seem to
>be a somewhat powerful thing, but I'm not sure what it 
>should yield. I really wish you two would elaborate on the
>implications. it would be helpful to understand your words.

	Hardly anything to say to all that. It's some minor chart 
interpretation.

ash
['But it's all very something.']

-- 
   "We oughta tell 'em th' whole Army don't look like us, Joe."
_________________________________________________________________
 Give me Liberty or give me a nice house in France from whence I
can hunt some Liberty down. Or you can eat lead. Get off my wave.
Two|Riven against a Black Sun|six|...that which we are we are|One


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Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.astrology
Subject: Re: Astrology With Caliban and Cat
From: Ashurbanipal 
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On Sat, 01 Mar 2003 06:05:49 GMT,  in message 
<<15Y7a.69364$Ik.3029650@typhoon.sonic.net>>, nagasiva  
spleniated...
>dunno. maybe cuz the subject is astrology? that's why I'm setting
>the followup away from ARW, because we're moving away from a
>discussion of Wicca in content. do as you please, of course.

	Divination dropped.

>> The Sextile is minor compared to the aspects I did mention. And it is
>> a weak aspect among all possible aspects. It indicates an opportunity,
>> missed if not taken advantage of.

	Bah. The sextile is weaker than the quincunx?
	Dude, how MOD of you.

>> I post on ARW, but I'm not Wiccan. Many here are not wiccan.
>thanks for the clarification.

	Is this the sort of 'new age religion' thing where nothing specific 
ever actually occurs?

>re Venus which is conj Mars in Aries:
>> Often indicates relationship problems, and it's worse in 
>> Cat's chart because she has Aries intercepted.

	Everyone has relationship problems. Saying 'often indicates' is just 
fucking fishing.

>>>> Also you have completely overlooked the fact that this 
>>>> double quincunx or Arabic "Finger of God" also always 
>>>> includes, by its very structural nature, a nice, 
>>>> charming, helpful sextile, making the whole into an
>>>> isosceles triangle. In this case, the pleasant and 
>>>> uplifting sextile is Uranus-Ascendant sextile Venus-Mars. 
>> Bullshit. Comparing a sextile to that Yod is like trying 
>> to put out a forest fire with a single fire extinguisher.

	Excepting the sextile is part of the Yod.

>the phrase "that Yod" is confusing here as I didn't see 
>you define it, though by implication I gather it may be the
>Allah-finger or the opposition(s?). elsewhere you mention
>that sextile is just an opportunity which might be missed,
>so I gather the Yod is either not the sextile or the figure
>of which the sextile is part. you're talking about the
>Jupiter/Sun opposition? or something else?

	He's talking otu of his ass.

>interestingly, I've got Jupiter at odds with Sun, square,
>rather than opposed, and conjunct with Saturn. 

	Jupiter square sun is nothing dreadful. Squares mean the planets 
involved compete, so you get too much of both, but the sun and Jupiter are 
benefic, so it's a too much of a good thing issue. Too much blithering on 
about religion, I suppose.
	On the other hand, Jupiter/Saturn conjunct becomes it's own unit which 
 then squares the sun. Saturn square Sun is not terribly pleasant - that's 
usually something along the lines of never being able to please daddy.
	The benefic and the malefic tend to cancel each other out, so the 
whole is more an irritant (albeit a pushy irritant) rather than 
soul-destroying pain. Should make you skillful, mostly.

>to sri catyananda: 
>> Not my stated goal to analyze your entire chart. 
>true, but it'll be mine to come to an understanding of
>as much of all the charts we discuss as I'm able with
>the aim of understanding astrology better and, quite
>possibly, from an antagonistic view (usually I notice
>that readers are interested in slanting it the other
>way,

	Oh, This is just the usual squinty-eyed, throbbing-forehead-vein 
astrologer faceoff.
	'Well, *I* haven't got Pluto conjunct sun and we all know those people 
are baby-eating monsters.'
	'You bitch! I'd scratch your eyes out, but your Mercury conjunct 
already makes you blind! Ha. Ha.'

	Usenet: just one goddamn introvert after another.

>so I'm very intrigued to learn about the most
>negative interpretation of my own chart and 
>comparing it with the most positive). :>

	Everybody wants their zeitgeist diddled.

>> My goal was to discuss exactly what I discussed. 
>> The highly volatile weak point in your chart.

	Translation: Nyah nyah nyah, I'm more evolved than you are.
	Anyways, I'd call the weak points as being Moon square sun opposing 
Pluto and Saturn (by sign), followed by Uranus conjunct Asc. The person 
possessing those is probably not going to see them as weak points, whereas the 
stupid fuckin' yod is constantly lit up and fortified by overcompensation.

>and in particular how you see it relating to the
>upcoming planetary transits. 

	Saturn over Uranus/Asc is the unpleasant business.
	Neptune/moon must be pretty trippy.

	Change continues, time wounds all heels, you take the bad with good, 
everything ends. Etc. Etc.

>>>how does one determine a chart ruler? is it a matter of the 
>>>whole configuration? or can I just pick my favourite? I see
>>>in many charts a focus of attention for various relations
>>>of opposition, conjunctions, etc., and presume that it has
>>>given that planet strong play in the overal natal chart.
>> What's your Ascendant? The ruling planet of your 
>> Ascendant is your chart ruler.
>ah! that would be Jupiter then, since Sagittarius is my
>Ascendant. birthchart 10-25-61 in San Jose, CA.

	Well, alrighty then.

+-------<11>10Lib44----<10>15Vir15-----<9>10Leo44-----------+
| Mer 25Lib42r | Ven  9Lib24  |              |              |
| Sun  2Sco03  |              |              |              |
|              |              | Plu  9Vir33  |              |
|              |              | Ura 29Leo46  |              |
|              |              | Nod 23Leo35r |              |
<12> 6Sco13----|-----------------------------|----- 6Can13<8>
| Nep 10Sco43  |     Astrolog 5.40 chart     |              |
| Mar 16Sco25  |          Nagasiva           |              |
|              |    Wed Oct 25 1961  9:00    |              |
|              |        San Jose, CA         |              |
|              |  ST -08:00, 122:25W 37:45N  | For 25Gem26  |
<1> 1Sag42-----|   UT: 17:00, Sid.T: 11:05   |----- 1Gem42<7>
|              |       Porphyry Houses       |              |
|              |    Tropical / Geocentric    |              |
|              |  Julian Day = 2437598.2083  |              |
|              |                             |              |
|              |                             | Moo 25Tau46  |
<2> 6Cap13-----|-----------------------------|----- 6Tau13<6>
| Sat 23Cap53  |              |              |              |
| Jup 28Cap57  |              |              |              |
|              |              |              |              |
|              |              |              |              |
|              |              |              |              |
+-----------10Aqu44<3>-----15Pis15<4>-----10Ari44<5>--------+

	Whaddya know, another Scorpio sun, Moon in Taurus. Only run across one 
other of those on usenet.

>>>>> ...we all occasionally say things in the heat of a 
>>>>> flame war that we might otherwise not say.
>>> the issue was your hypocrisy, tho.
>> I wasn't being hypocritical at all. I was responding to 
>> the hypocrisy of some of the posters on that newsgroup. 
>> You took my posts out of context as a tool for your 
>> own ends, and never bothered to read the entire threads. 

	SERIOUS LEGAL THREATS!
	Ohmigawd!

>I think astrology wars are an interesting slant on chart
>analysis: describing the worst aspects of someone's
>natal chart whom one wishes to oppose, undermine, or
>otherwise unsettle. should you care to share your date
>of birth and compare charts in whatever relation (i.e.
>wars, convivial exchange, whatever), I'd be interested.

	Run of the mill for Masters of the Universe.

ash
['Czech, please!']


-- 
   "We oughta tell 'em th' whole Army don't look like us, Joe."
_________________________________________________________________
 Give me Liberty or give me a nice house in France from whence I
can hunt some Liberty down. Or you can eat lead. Get off my wave.
Two|Riven against a Black Sun|six|...that which we are we are|One


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NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 01:01:10 -0600
Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.divination,alt.astrology
Subject: Re: Astrology With Caliban and Cat
From: Ashurbanipal 
Organization: Remember kids! Eat shit and DIE!
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 01:00:04 -0600
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On Sat, 01 Mar 2003 08:49:50 GMT,  in message 
<<3E607688.42FC74D7@luckymojo.com>>, catherine yronwode  
spleniated...
>A mark of the canned horoscope (as produced by a program, ala IO
>Edition, with which you are familiar, i believe) is that is can only
>look at the aspects one at a time. A good astrologer looks at the
>whole pattern. The aspects in question, in my chart, which Caliban
>Jeff Crowe is trying to interpret in a scary, negative way, are a
>double quincunx 

	He's trying to interpret 'the whole pattern' in the least flattering 
way possible. The whole pattern being whatever someone says it is, typically.

[...]
>It is a tense aspect that contains both positive and negative values,
>and it is unique among all the aspects in not belonging to an
>aspect-family. It is also a fairly weak aspect, in that its effects
>are not often strongly pronounced in the life of the native ("native"
>is an old astrological term for the subject of the chart
>interpretation).  
>That is the single quincunx. 
>Now, the double quincunx, which is faced off with the fortunate
>sextile, is seen as a very powerful aspect, 

	Is it? I never thought it was that important.
	Sorry.

>and outside of Caliban's
>using it to carp at me, because it appears on my chart, i have never
>heard it described as negatively as he has. He is interpreting it
>almost as a T-square, which it most decidedly is not, for the T-square
>is capped by an opposition, and is thus comprised of three negative
>aspects, whereas the double quincunx is capped by a sextile and thus
>consists of two tense aspects and one minor fortunate aspect. 

	Jupiter quincunx Uranus might be less than pleasant, but hardly the 
end or teh worlt.

[...]
>nagasiva:
>> re Venus which is conj Mars in Aries:
>> > Often indicates relationship problems, and it's worse in
>> > Cat's chart because she has Aries intercepted.
>This is laughable. Venus conjunct Mars is a notable sign of a sexually
>motivated person, one with a high sex drive, comfortable with sex, and
>it says little about "relationship problems" at all. I have seen
>people with this aspect married once, for life, and others who had
>several relationships -- but what is obvious about the aspect is that
>the native is very likely to consider that having a compatible sex
>partner is a very high motivator. 

	Venus conjunct Mars is one thing in Libra, another thing in Leo, and a 
third thing in Aries.
	In Aries, Venus is debilitated and Mars is very powerful, so in the 
conjunction, Mars should completely overwhelm Venus.
	Having know a coupla of people with Venus-Mars in Aries, I have 
noticed that they have a tendency to be bored if they don't get enough sex 
and/or sex partners. The young ones, at least, have a pronounced aversion to 
being alone, at any time.

>sacred sex and sex magick at http://www.luckymojo.com/sacredsex.html
>-- that's the kind of thing one expects from people with Venus
>conjunct Mars -- a mystical, magical idea of sex. 

	I would expect a mystical, magical idea of sex from Neptune/Mars or 
Neptune/Venus.
	I would expect Venus/Mars to mainly be horny a lot.

>Caliban, on the other hand, has Venus SQUARE Mars. That is the usual
>sign of difficult relationships and even imperfect sexual adjustment.

	More importantly, his Venus is in Scorpio and combust the sun.

>His continually "forgetting" to mention my Venus and his
>interpretation of Venus conjunct Mars as "difficult" is a projection
>of his own Venus Square Mars, i suspect. 

	I think he was just looking for anything to hand.

>> what does "intercepted" mean? you just talking about the
>> Mars/Venus conjunction?
>An intercepted sign is one that does not appear on a house cusp. This
>will change depending on what system of houses you use. If there is
>one, there will always be another -- the opposite sign.. In my case,
>both Aries and Libra are intercepted if one uses the Placidian method
>of assigning house cusps. 
>In my experience, an aspect in an intercepted sign is not a weak
>aspect, but what IS weakened is the planet that rules the sign that is
>intercepted. That is because it rules no house. 

	I pay intercepted signs no never mind. I have never been able to 
discern any substantial difference in a chart when a sign is intercepted, 
particularly since you can always up and change house systems.

>Of course, if two signs are intercepted, two other signs will rule two
>houses each. In my experience, the planets that rule those two signs
>will be proportionately stronger. 

	I regard the planets ruling the angles as the important issue.

>In my case, since Aries and Libra are intercepted, Mars and Venus
>(their rulers) are weakened -- 

	Nah. Especially not in the conjunction in Aries.

>He admits to wanting to use my chart to trash me, and he may also be
>trying to catalyze some sort of unfortunate incident by predicting it,
>through the power of suggestion. Most astrologers actually take vows
>not to do this to people, and especially not to do so without reading
>the entire chart. Caliban jeff Crowe thus reveals himself as quite an
>outsider to the norm in astrological circles. 

	Maybe. We ran him off from alt.astrology a while ago.
	I thought he was a run of the mill twit myself.

>He is attempting to use
>astrology to weaken, undermine, frighten, and harass a person who did
>not come to him for astrological advice. He didn't know that i am an
>astrologer when he started this, by the way. He mentioned in usenet,
>while flaming me, that he had found my chart (the basics are on my
>home page) and could use it against me. That's evil, from my point of
>view.  

	I thought that was run of the mill, too.
	Such is my cynicism.

>Caliban does not mention it, but there are other ways to determine the
>chart ruler. Some teachers will tell you that a planet trumps an
>imaginary point any time, so that having a planet at the ascendant
>will trump the mechanical ascription of rulership to the planet that
>rules the sign that is at the ascendant. 

	That's an interesting thought. Why?

>> the contrast of valuation and interpretation of charts
>> has always been intriguing to me.
>I'm sure. Contrast appeals to you. You have Jupiter conjunct Saturn.
>You are equable with respect to extremes of positivity and negativity.
>As John Lennon, another person with Jupiter conjunct Saturn, once
>declared: 
>    Raaaa-aaaa-aaaa-aaaain, i don't mind! 
>    Shiiii-iii-ii-iiine, the weather's fine!

	Hrmm.

ash
['Wade.']

-- 
   "We oughta tell 'em th' whole Army don't look like us, Joe."
_________________________________________________________________
 Give me Liberty or give me a nice house in France from whence I
can hunt some Liberty down. Or you can eat lead. Get off my wave.
Two|Riven against a Black Sun|six|...that which we are we are|One


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Newsgroups: alt.magick.tyagi,alt.astrology,alt.astrology.metapsych
Subject: Re: Jeff and Catherine
From: Ashurbanipal 
Approved: Mr. Wizard
Organization: Remember kids! Eat shit and DIE!
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 16:05:28 -0600
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On Thu, 27 Feb 2003 16:34:02 GMT,  in message 
<<3E5E4053.83D1420D@luckymojo.com>>, Lucky Mojo Curio co. 
 spleniated...
>Caliban wrote:
>> lorax666  wrote:
>> >given that she's already said that she was the victim of sexual
>> >abuse as a child, and was busted for marijuana, this isn't very
>> >hard to guess. add to this her occasional heated expressions to
>> >you in public, and your astrological analysis isn't going very
>> >deep. again, weak. it reminds me of tarot readers who offer
>> >suggestions deduced from observables.
>> This is a standard interpretation of someone with their Nodes in the
>> signs and houses that Cat's are in. 

	Standard? According to whom?

>Actually, Caliban doesn't need the Moon's nodes (mathematically
>plotted places in the sky, where no planets are) to derive these
>things. After all, i have the Sun in the 12th house. That alone
>bespeaks imprisonment. 

	Excepting that simply having the sun in the 12th means neither death 
by suicide or past life death in prison, unless you want to say that one in 
twelve people die in those circumstances.
	I suppose you could twist imprisonment (and suicide) into indicating a 
variety of unpleasant circumstances, but that seems so dishonest.

>> That you've just confirmed it for me is gratifying. 
>> I didn't know about the other stuff you mentioned
>> until just now.
>The information siva posted is printed right on the personal pages
>Caliban went to to get my birthdate. Those pages have been online
>since 1996 -- 
[...] 
	That's where I looked!

ash
['It all seems so easy.']

-- 
   "We oughta tell 'em th' whole Army don't look like us, Joe."
_________________________________________________________________
 Give me Liberty or give me a nice house in France from whence I
can hunt some Liberty down. Or you can eat lead. Get off my wave.
Two|Riven against a Black Sun|six|...that which we are we are|One


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From: catherine yronwode 
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Subject: Re: Jeff and Catherine
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Xref: typhoon.sonic.net alt.magick.tyagi:38125 alt.astrology:486874 alt.astrology.metapsych:146548

Keera Ann Fox wrote:
> 
> Ashurbanipal  wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, 27 Feb 2003 16:34:02 GMT,  in message
> > <<3E5E4053.83D1420D@luckymojo.com>>, Lucky Mojo Curio co.
> >  spleniated...

 Jeff "Caliban" Crowe wrote:

> > > > The only other planetary body [sic -- the Moon's nodes are 
> > > > not planetary bodies] in your 6th House of health, service 
> > > > and the daily grind, besides Jupiter, is the South Node in
> > > > Sagittarius. This tells me that you likely died by a violent 
> > > > act of your own devising in a past life and have unbalanced 
> > > > depression/anger issues in this life. 

Snipping, but summarizing -- nagasiva then went on to say that it was
more likely that rather than "past lives" affecting me (like me, he
does not believe in the doctrine of reincarnation), any anger or
depression i feel might be accounted for by my history of childhood
sex abuse -- which i freely mention on my home page, from whence Jeff
Crowe got my birth date. The web page also mentions my being a
troubled teen (due to the aforementioned family problems) and the fact
that i was arrested and briefly jailed for growing marijuana in 1967.

In response to siva, i then wrote:

> > >Actually, Caliban doesn't need the Moon's nodes (mathematically
> > >plotted places in the sky, where no planets are) to derive these
> > >things. After all, i have the Sun in the 12th house. That alone
> > >bespeaks imprisonment.

I was referring here to both the metaphorical imprisonment of
childhood sex abuse and the actual jail time (3 months) i did for
growing marijuana. 

> I have the Sun in 12th. I have never spent time in prison (or that other
> institution ruled by the 12th: a hospital).

I have never been hospitalized. I tend to interpret the 12th house as
"limitation" -- but the point i was making was that all the
information already on the home page was sufficient for Jeff Caliban
Crowe to create an phony "interpretation" -- working backwards from
published facts to a supposed astrological "reading."
 
> > Excepting that simply having the sun in the 12th means neither death
> > by suicide or past life death in prison, unless you want to say that one
> > in twelve people die in those circumstances.

Caliban Jeff Crowe had actually claimed that having the South Node of
the Moon in the 6th house in Sagittarius indicated a violent death by
suicide in a past life. But on the whole, i agree. Neither that
placement, nor the 12th house Sun are firm indicators of such things
-- even if one *does* believe in reincarnation, which i do not. 

> > I suppose you could twist imprisonment (and suicide) into indicating
> > a variety of unpleasant circumstances, but that seems so dishonest.

Dishonesty is a good word for what Jeff Caliban Crowe is doing here,
in my opinion. I think that his dishonesty here is an attempt to
frighten, castigate, or otherwise harass the native (myself). He is
not using astrology for any meaningful purpose. I am convinced that
since he did this to me, he would do it to others, as well. 

When i was taught astrology, back in the late 1960s, my teacher
actually had me read and sign an oath, similar to the Hippocratic Oath
of medicine, promising that i would not use astrology to harm people.
I suppose that is old-fashioned now. I wonder if anyone still takes
such oaths? 
 
> Institutionalization with limits on personal (physical) freedom.
> Becoming a monk in a monastery fits the bill, too.

Of course, and, for one whose chart indicates literary talents in
other ways, as mine does, a 12th house Sun-Mercury conjunction also
may indicate  voluntarily becoming a ghost-writer. I have been a
ghost-writer and have always considered it a 12th house form of
writing. 

The point is that was that Caliban Jeff Crowe, to whom i did NOT apply
as a client, by the way, attempted to use my horoscope to claim that i
had died a violent death by suicide in a past life and that i am an
angry, unbalanced person now as a result of this. 

This is grotesquely unsavory con-artistry, in my opinion, and
constitutes a misuse of astrology. 

I do not believe in reincarnation, am fairly competent at astrological
analysis myself, and am thus immune to Mr. Crowe's seemingly
authoritative astrological pronouncements -- but what if i had been a
gullible client of this astrologer? 

It's sickening, really, what some people will do in an attempt to
undermine the happiness of others. 

cat yronwode 

Freemasonry for Women ------- http://www.luckymojo.com/comasonry.html

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